Allison boat and prop blow-out?

catfish123

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
1,938
Points
38
Most of you know I had a "bad" incident with my XB2003 with a Merc 280 last July. I don't know why but I just got to thinking some more about it. When a prop blows-out, just EXACTLY what does that mean? I know it means "it" loses contact momentarily with the water, but explain to me just how much of it loses contact, etc. I hope I'm making sense, as usual, I am for myself, but not sure you'll know what I'm asking. I'm assuming that at the rather elevated heights we run, the tips of the prop are surfacing, so what really happens with a blow-out"?
 

K.Kiser

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
1,260
Points
38
Location
Shreveport, LA.
Not exactly sure of the question in detail, but I'll take a stab... Happens when the water that normally flows in contact across the surface of the gearcase thus flowing straight into the prop blades gets interrupted... The water gets ''blown" outta contact with the gearcase sides due to the gearcase not traveling level enough through the water to have a good drag coefficient... Think of an actual bullet yawing through the air, and how the air would begin to flow around it in a turbulent manner...

Like when someone is trying to air a boat out and the prop isn't hooking up well enough to hold the weight, the hull falls and this causes the gearcase to not be traveling level in the water anymore causing a turbulent flow aft of the nosecone and then the prop doesn't have a solid food source anymore...

Sounded right in my head, no idea if it reads with any clarity..
 

hack02

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
1,270
Points
36
Location
Lawrenceville GA
The way I understand it-----the gearcase is crabbing sideways thru the water causing an air bubble on one side of the case, which normally isn't a problem until a certain speed is reached and the bubble finally blends with the exhaust bubble. At this point is when blow out occurs.
 

catfish123

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
1,938
Points
38
I must have gotten to that "certain speed"..............How much of the tips of the prop are normally surfacing above the water at rather elevated heights?
 

Kruton

Active Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2005
Messages
141
Points
18
Location
Watts Bar.
hack02 thats the way I was told also.

Someone correct me if im wrong but I always heard a 200 case was the best for a Ally on the big end. The 200 has a smaller profile than a sportsmaster/cle and wont try to surface like a bigger case will.
 

RedAllison

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Messages
5,116
Points
48
Location
Jackson, TN
10,000 "blow-outs" = 10,000 different reasons why! Prop slung a blade, skeg broke off, angle of attack changed, hull/gearcase was raised to far out of the water, ice bag wrapped around the gearcase etc...

Blow-out in its simplest form is the prop losing it solid bite on the water through which it is moving. Water is 8X heavier than air, that is why airplane props are so much bigger than boat props. A marine prop isn't large enough (nor configured to move air anyway) to hold onto enough air to continue propelling itself forward, thus it "quits pushing" if no water is present. When this "push" is lost, ESPECIALLY on a boat like an Allison that's up on the pad and rolling 80+mph, then that sets up a whole nother set of problems... none of which are good.

When you lose juice in a Ranger/Toon/Skeeter etc running 70mph down the lake it's no big deal because the surface area of the hull that is in contact with the water is not much smaller than your dining room table. The Allison is running on the equivalent surface area of about the size of a piece of notebook paper or the cover of a regular hardback book. The keel line then drops and the MUCH LARGER surface area of that long keel line becomes a steering rudder, overpowers any grip the pad had and "around she goes". The effect is magnified by the unique fact that planing hull boats are not only propelled from the rear but also steered from the rear so any upset in that relationship yields much different results than seen on land or even in the air.

And not to muddy the water, but sometimes "WHODAHELL KNOWS?" is the only "fact" we're left with after some marine wrecks. That's what drove Eddie Hill from racing TopFuel hydros after his 5th accident I think it was. He was able to recreate and figure out what happened after every previous accident so he felt safe in "fixing whatever caused it" but he said after that last one that nearly killed him they just couldn't figure it out so he said, "TO HECK WITH THAT" and went to T/F dragsters.

With regards to my wreck in 09 I know mostly what happened, I was running to fast over 3ft whitecaps, downwind and I let out of it to quick. (Was turning a 28" cut chopper around 7100Rs) Which then caused the bow to drop at just the right moment, into a large trough between the waves, the bow and keel line then had a tremendous "grip" and around she went. The G-forces were so great that some of the gages were sucked out of the dash and ejected, and a speaker or two from under the dash went with them. The further toward the stern you went, the greater the "whip/pendulum" effect was. I don't care what ANYONE says, Lou Ferrigno himself couldn't have held onto that much force throwing you OUT! I was thrown THROUGH the passenger bucket on the way out and the wrinkle pattern of the glass of the cockpit was bruised/pressed into my left shoulder and back... THROUGH my impact vest! (HOW my collarbone or shoulder wasn't instantly snapped was beyond the doctors) The only real "can't figure out" in the whole deal was what opened my head up to the skull and what nearly tore my left ear off? There wasn't any blood found on the boat except for the cowling on the motor I believe I was told. I think some of the problem with that rig was magnified by the fact that it had ZERO lip and the motor was raised exceptionally high (for an Allison, something on the line of 1.25"-1.5" above pad). I'm not saying that's what caused it and in fact the boat ran very well like that and several have been run like that before and since. But I think that specific to the Allisons, such gearcase heights make blowout in rough water (or anyother "quick changes in angle of attack") more likely and violent simply because theirs less surface area of both the pad and the gearcase/prop itself in the water to "hold onto".

You'll spend the rest of your life wondering "What if/why". I don't push the envelope nearly as much anymore as I used to but it's not based any fears. But instead it's because what had the BIGGEST impact on me during my incident wasn't my own laying in the Neuro ICU room for a few days or even the pain I suffered during the healing. No the BIGGEST reason I don't push as much anymore is the tears and impact I saw it all had on my wife, my kids, my mother, friends, employees and ESPECIALLY my hero... MY DAD! He felt it was HIS fault because he and our family drag raced jets when I was young so I've been around and had the "aqua jones" my entire life. He had several close calls over the years of racing but never got wet. We lost one family member in his blown fuel jet in the late 70s so my injury just opened up alot of old wounds that had been festering in my family. Some things are just more important than ourselves.

Now having said that, I LOVE THESE DAMNED BOATS, LETTING THEM EAT, ENJOY MY BUDDIES WHO RACE THEM and all that goes with them. Hell I've had MANY more close calls during the 12 years I rode Harleys than I EVER have while owning boats my entire life.

Again I'm NOT judging ANYONE with my above post, I think those who know me understand that. I couldn't wait for my wife and kids to have their first 100+mph ride in an Allison via Todd in his amazing GS. I just think I kinda know what Catfish is sorta askin here... :confused:
 

SLOmofo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
2,432
Points
63
Location
1/2 way between the Gay Bay and LA.
Bob like Red said, 10,000 reasons. Engine height for the conditions one of the biggest.
In my case I'm almost convinced the engine height was to low causing the boat to porpoise. During acceleration the boat would be somewhat stable. Once the boat stopped accelerating the porpoise would start. At lower speeds enough of the boat was still in the water and either accelerating or backing out would stabilize the boat.
Well that worked up until I stabbed it one more time to stop the porpoise. What I think happened was when it stopped accelerating, the first drop of the bow was the cause, the boat hooked and the effect was me realizing I needed to swim to the surface.
This weekend I raised the engine 1/4" at a time. Started 1/2" under now 3/4" above.
1994 XB2003 no lip and to much HP!
 

MWest77

Active Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
386
Points
16
Location
Southaven, ms
All you guys are nuts! Respectfully of course. I've been told my boat runs 85 mph and I don't care to ever get it that fast. From what I gather from most folks on here, there is no such thing as a little mistake in these boats at 100 mph. It seems most of you guys have found yourselves swimming by screwing with engine height and this and that. I drive a fast car but to me the rush is the acceleration, not the top end. I've been offered a 100 mph boat ride. No thanks buddy! :don't_care
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
As Red and Gary said also so many ways. i would have to agree with the most common would be excessive prop shaft hight. That being to much trim or even neutral with to high of jack hight. The way I understand props is surfacing props are run half in half out. The half out aids in the ease of rotation providing a prop that can enable more rpm with less power than submerged or even semi surfaced props.
The air bubble factor or cavitation most common for higher rpm motors like ours occurs many ways also. The pressure side and the suction side is limited, and eventually reduced as cavitation is increased. When most of the blade surface is covered by air, cavitation, the pressure difference between the pressure side and suction side of the blade drops to the point of thrust loss. This could also drop the bow and send you around and you might not feel it happening. Gearcase design, prop design, and engine boat combo. all have to be working in harmony. Being human we always dont see or feel whats always happening. Or it happens to quick to react. Ive had some blow outs to quick to react, Some seen it happening and was able to react. And one just got lucky as I slung well just cracked a blade at around 95. That one i almost barrel rolled blowing over!! Bow up and turning to the left at the same time. Then with the bow almost straight up in the air she turned the other way and I came down sideways. I never ran a thinned prop since.

I often wonder about if hitting a fish on the surface at speed would drop the bow? Theres always that possibility? My rpm, GPS ,and seat of pants have helped lots forcing me to back off or slow down. RPM up and no speed = back off. But some times if the bubble lets go and is big enough it will happen to fast. The blunting of the nose of the gearcase for speed is another trick that at higher speeds could cause problems. Im really only a 90mph boat and the amount of blunting ive done works well. If I used my gearcase with a 260 i would sharpen it up a little to run faster than I do because the air would reach to far back.

So many different ways to getch ya. Crabbing to hard lessens to props ability to create the amount of thrust needed to propel the mass and will eventually loose enough to drop the bow also. The blades need equal suction and pressure to create enough thrust.

Another thing I can think of is over steering an unbalanced hull. that moves the prop back and forth to much and can also result in one side loosing enough thrust or falling to far off the pad. Wow so many things to think about. But thats why we drive Allisons. Because we can.:big grin I figure Ill take my chances with a vee over tunnel because I would blow over a tunnel wanting more I figured?

Its sad when one of us gets killed or injured. Being as safe as possible and leaning as much as possible will help but even then some of the best drivers still get hurt. :confused
 
Last edited:

xb03fs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2008
Messages
2,370
Points
48
Location
STL
I have heard that hammering the trottle instead of rolling into it can be troublesome near WOT as well. Not sure how true it is as knock on wood I havn't turned one.
 

GotMyAlly

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
4,907
Points
63
Location
Olive Branch, MS
All you guys are nuts! Respectfully of course. I've been told my boat runs 85 mph and I don't care to ever get it that fast. From what I gather from most folks on here, there is no such thing as a little mistake in these boats at 100 mph. It seems most of you guys have found yourselves swimming by screwing with engine height and this and that. I drive a fast car but to me the rush is the acceleration, not the top end. I've been offered a 100 mph boat ride. No thanks buddy! :don't_care
You just haven't had yours long enough to get bitten by the speed bug. I give it 2 years before you are shopping for a 225 PM or a 280! :beer:


I think the leading cause is trying to squeak every last mph out of the boat with a limited amount of HP. More HP allows you to run faster without hitting that trim button or jackplate button one or two more taps, either of which puts you on the ragged edge.
 

Darth VMAX

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Messages
1,921
Points
38
Location
SC Kansas
You just haven't had yours long enough to get bitten by the speed bug. I give it 2 years before you are shopping for a 225 PM or a 280! :beer: QUOTE]

Had mine since 2004 and I have never even emptied it out to "see what it'll do". I have had her mid 80's and I KNOW she has a little more, but just have never really had the undying desire to see what that is. On occasion, yes. I would like to see what it can do and I am sure one day curiosity will get the best of me. But the more I think about doing something stupid that could jeapordize the short time I have with my kids (before they are grown and gone) that usually kills the curiosity to see "a number".
 

2fast4mom

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
2,616
Points
48
Location
Watts Bar, TN
RA and others have given detailed and correct analysis of the blow-out condition.

I would say that in my experience, too high of a propshaft setting and over-trim are the leading causes of blow out.

I have tried running all 7 of the Allisons I have owned running above the pad. In every case, it was a scary experience, didn't gain me anything, and was downright dangerous.

Stick with running the propshaft even with, or 1/4" below the pad and save yourself one possible risk factor for blowing out.

Darris will tell you his boats are not designed for running above the pad. If the guy who designed the hulls says this, I would need to be dumb and dumber to ignore his advice. I guess I was, because I tried it for myself with NG outcome.
 

Myron

Active Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
556
Points
18
RA and others have given detailed and correct analysis of the blow-out condition.

I would say that in my experience, too high of a propshaft setting and over-trim are the leading causes of blow out.

I have tried running all 7 of the Allisons I have owned running above the pad. In every case, it was a scary experience, didn't gain me anything, and was downright dangerous.

Stick with running the propshaft even with, or 1/4" below the pad and save yourself one possible risk factor for blowing out.

Darris will tell you his boats are not designed for running above the pad. If the guy who designed the hulls says this, I would need to be dumb and dumber to ignore his advice. I guess I was, because I tried it for myself with NG outcome.
I agree with this, I have set up many Allisons and have never gone above the pad, I have ran big numbers in an 03, 02 and a SS2000. In regards to blow out, I had the privilege to see some underwater video from Lake X when they were developing the Sportmaster, you could look frame by frame and see how the air bubbles would form around the gearcase, it was really interesting. From what I know the case going thru the water is punching a hole in the water and at the same time creates air bubbles, that is why the profile of a case is so important for big top end.
 

2fast4mom

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
2,616
Points
48
Location
Watts Bar, TN
I agree with this, I have set up many Allisons and have never gone above the pad, I have ran big numbers in an 03, 02 and a SS2000. In regards to blow out, I had the privilege to see some underwater video from Lake X when they were developing the Sportmaster, you could look frame by frame and see how the air bubbles would form around the gearcase, it was really interesting. From what I know the case going thru the water is punching a hole in the water and at the same time creates air bubbles, that is why the profile of a case is so important for big top end.
+1 and the profile can be defined by aspect ratio of the length to the diameter, that is why sportmasters are too "fat" for their length in stock form to get above around 104 safely. It is also why the speedmaster cases are capable of such high topend.
 

whipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Messages
5,409
Points
63
Location
prince george b.c. canada
:
I think the leading cause is trying to squeak every last mph out of the boat with a limited amount of HP. More HP allows you to run faster without hitting that trim button or jackplate button one or two more taps, either of which puts you on the ragged edge.
Thats me.:big grin Ive since having had to many scary times come to the realization that 90 is more achievable and feels better that above 90 with a 225. The times ive been above 90 are few and not worth the risk for me anymore with out more power.

With more power as mentioned stabbing the throttle at an already fast pace say 90+ can result in enough cavitation to reduce thrust because the rate of instability threw cavitation can occur faster than most setups will find there boats attitude in the correct angle of attack. A more gradual approach to speeds closer to 100+ ensure a more correct engine position and riding angle to not release the turbulents around the gearcase into the prop as dramatically. If you blow up a balloon real fast with compressed air it will pop at a smaller diameter than allowing it to stretch as a slower rate of inflation.:big grin

I think the faster the hull speed the less dramatic this becomes. As an example an Xr 2001 with a 300 drag with a 24 pitch prop and a Steckbauer XR6 case is less likely to blow out stabbing the throttle from 90 than a Grand Sport or XB 2003 with a 30 pitch prop stout 280 and SportMaster is from 90. Same as a 36ft 160mph+ Skater. Stabbing the throttle at 100mph on the Skater would have less of an instability effect. So the moral of this example is the faster the hull speed the higher the speeds you can get away with stabbing the throttle with a well set up the craft. For my GS with a 225 and a 28 pitch prop I feel OK stabbing the throttle from 65mph . The time it takes to reach 90 i can make the proper adjustments. If i had a stout 260 or 280 with a 28 pitch prop and stabbed the throttle from 80 or 85 mph the rate at witch I would accelerate to 100 might prove to be to quick for the hull to be running at the correct angle of attach. The rate at witch the hull is lifting and the closer i approach the hulls max speed the more likely blow out would become.
Gary has more power than 99.9% of us on his 2003. Theoretical speed with his setup is was over 120 with a 30 pitch prop. On the other hand his hull speed is more in the 104-105 range. He knows what would happen if he stabbed the throttle at 100mph. Not a good situation is my bet. This would make a good topic also. At what speed with what setup have you been cruising and felt safe stabbing the throttle up to.
Great Thread Catfish!! Its threads like these that help us all realise the extreme nature of our boats and the respect we all need to have when operating them toward there limits.
 
Last edited:
Top