Hooking my O my. Why!

[GFinch]

1994, XB 2003,
Hyd steering w/Allison cylinder
8" Rapid jack at what I believe is 1/2' below to even with the pad.
3.0 OMCease Taylor bolt on EFI, MSD, ported by Al Stoker.
16" Taylor mid,
Sportsmaster lower, swept skag, ground in tab. 1.62 gears 26" chopper.
3 Odyssey 680 battery's in front of gas tank on the port side.
When I run it theres very little in the boat. No trolling motor. Nothing extra.
I don't have much time/experience above 85mph, only accelerating up past then backing out of the throttle. Still leaning out the EFI. 6300rpm is limited by rich fuel setting.
Prior the the WAR07 I have hooked this boat 3 times.
1st was operator error running in chop, short mid and no way to lower engine, way to high. Replaced Allison jack with 8" rapid jack.
2nd don't really remember, I believe over trimming for conditions.
3rd out with a friend and went over a nasty set of wakes at approximately 65.
4th was today, I think it was chopping the throttle to quickly as I shut down after an acceleration run. Also this is the first time out with the cut down wind shield.
In all instances it has been a tight right hand turn. All I've done is tightly grip the wheel and hang on, didn't try to steer out of it, at least not consciously. All have been less than 180 degrees, nothing violent, just hang on were going to turn right, NOW!
This seems to be a once in a while thing. Last weekend a blown Eliminator jet picked on me and I took it to 95 without any problem, lucky for me as he was on my right and behind.
Is it this chopper (26 big ear) has too much bow lift and when the bow drops the rudder action is lost?
Is it inherent in this 1994 boat, I believe the first year of production?
On acceleration the boat seems to really lift at around 80/85 and I usually bump the trim down. Pucker factor.
I have had the nose drop to the right at 93 this was last fall, it was just as I hit top speed but when it did it, it didn't hook.
:idiot :beating dead horse ,:beer:

Need help taming this beast. Please send help!
More HP than Brains!

 

[rmills280]

my 03 is a 2000 model and i found that the 26 chopper i was running just would not get the boat out of the water enough to get it up in the happy zone. roger

 

[Ally Driver]

Those 4 things are what u don't do in an Aboat! Except #3. It sounds like u did a #4 right when u hit the wake. Also when your prop quits pulling the bow will tend to drop. With a boat like the 03 that runs a very high bow attitude finesse is key. keep the boat free and the steering and throttle inputs smooth and fluid as possible and always stay it the throttle over boat wakes to keep the bow up. If your just learning your boat a very responsive high hp motor like you seem to have can make the learning curve a lil harder. If i were u i'd get a little more conservitave setup(4 blade prop, lower the mota, keep it a lil on the rich side).I have an 03 and a drag and have never hooked either of them. Although i have hooked other bass boats before.
I hope this helps!
Good luck, You'll get it.
Dave.

 

[froggy]

Gary,

First off I need to enlighten you, and the Ally clan, as to the origin of Allison Boats. They are really not built in Tennessee-they are built in Texas (Darris just has a show plant in Tennessee). Evidence of a Texas build is the Allison cheer-"Hook-Em" (he,he,he).

Seriously, several, competent, performance boaters, and I, have been trying to figure out the what's and the why's of what you are experiencing. My, personal, conclusion, of the cause of a hook is not the bow, it's the pad. When the pad, finally "pops" up, due to the lip (there's more than one lip at the back of a 2003), it unweights the pad (similar to what happens to a stepped hull---these things spin out too) and lets the pad spin out in the direction that inertia has set. Since all boats, with single engines, try to turn right (due to prop walk torque) and have to be corrected with left turn force, when the pad "unweights" the pad will go to the left. If this happens at a high speed, normal humans will not be able to hold onto the wheel (cable steering only) and the engine will go hard to it's left lock, resulting in a, serious "spin out" or bat turn. You are able to hang on to the wheel, it's either because of the slower speeds it's occuring for you or you have hydraulic steering, or both.

Now, how to fix. I believe you want to eliminate the pad's "popping" up uexpectedly. Your boat is a 1994 and has 2" less setback than the 1996's to current. We have had good results with a 10" setback on a 1994/95 model (8" on 1996-current). Your engine weighs more than a 2.5, but not by much so the longer setback may help keep the pad planted. Second, install a Stainless Marine trim indicator and mark it where zero trim is. When you go out to run a new prop or a different engine height, get up to 40 - 50 mph and trim, trim, trim, until you 'propwalk' (rear of boat will move to right). Mentally notice where, on your trim indicator, this happens. Repeat several more times and note trim indication where 'propwalk' occurs. Now, when making your speed run do not trim to the 'propwalk' height-ever. This will keep you from the dreaded bat turn, at least it has kept me from it.

Finally, see BadBait for help sanding your pad lip.

That's my take from 22 years of setting up ABotes and it's worth what you paid for it. Take it or leave it, it works for me. I run triple digits through boat wakes and, so far, OK. Also, I can pull the kill switch, at high speed and the boat won't hook.

There's a bunch more to this discussion, such as the change in dynamic center of gravity (when you slow down quickly), center of lift versus center of gravity, additive up force exerted by pad lip, lower unit and prop, etc.

Incidentally, try moving two of your batteries to the rear of the port compartment and the starter battery to the gas tank compartment.

I hope this helps a little.

froggy

 

[JR]

Since I hook mine on purpose, at the beginning of an intentional bat turn, I have found the advice on more setback is correct. Since I increased my setback I almost have to force my rig to hook, when before it was hard to stay out of a hook.
Be careful in the bassboats since they seem prone to eject people, unlike the GS and SS that have a deep cockpit.
Enjoy your toy,
JR

 

[GFinch]

Thanks to all who have our will reply. It all helps! Even JR!

RMILLS280... It's been able to get "In the happy zone with any prop I've tried so far. 22"chopper to 29"SRX but they all have been worked.

Ally Driver... 4 things wrong, probably 10 times that... The high bow seems to be what I'm fighting. I did run a stock motor for a while getting used to balancing on the pad. I agree I should probably take a step back and not rush it.

froggy... This is what I need. I can see what is happening as you describe it. Question: 1, lip on the pad. The other is the part that rests on the trailer bunk? My engine is at least 50 lbs heaver than a stock OMCease. More and thicker Aluminum. I did have it on a 10,12,14" Allison plate at 10". It seems to jump onto plane better with the 8" setback. Both have floatation and a ride plate.
I do have the Stainless trim indicator marked at neutral trim. I have see your instruction on the prop walk, butt have to remember to use it.
At the WAR07 he showed me his tool, well the one's for pad mods. KISS!

Thank you!

I'm always ready to learn.

I will try moving the batterys as you suggest. I figured since they weigh a total of 45lbs more centered and lower would be gooder.

Every thing you've said here is a help. Even if not used it starts the mind to seeing....

JR... what can I say..........Your Nuts, I know you'll take this as the complement it is.

 

[froggy]

Gary,

The lip that rests on the trailer bunks is evil and unnecessary, it is not a bad idea to level it then touch up the exposed glass with some 'thin mix' gel coat and smooth & polish. The main pad lip: Get to a setback you like. If the OMC weighs, say 475#, you may be where you need to be. Now run your boat at zero trim to a tad positive and if it doesn't lift adequately, its time to sand the lip until it lifts at zero trim (see BadBait for moral support and help).

Good luck!

froggy

 

[whipper]

Froggy can you chop the throtle with a chopper11 above 90? I can chop my DR4 but my chopper's arn't vary happy when I don't bump them down once or twice before I let of the gas. What other props do you usually run that are nice letting off like that? I like what you said about crabing. I believe it was Chad or Allisonman last year telling me to try that. I do the same thing and it has also worked for me. Gary I have hooked a couple of times and its always me getting trim happy.:laughing Crabing at 90 and then over correction and yikes!! Something you said also reminded me what I was told by a fast guy once was its harder {if you call it that} to accelerate then let off right away then to be able to hold wot for a bit first before letting off. The reason he said was once you have reached max rpm and speed your prop will stay at a constant tourque rotation. So the hydrodynamtics behind your gearcase and the pad lip will have a set that will not change more or less compared to accelerating and decelerating. When you let off before this has occoured and the prop is still building enersia the effect will be kinda like putting on your front brakes to hard going down a hill.:big grin Thus lifting the rear tire or in this case your prop to high if your trimmed to reach max speed already. The prop will still have enough momentum to turn the stern to the left if it pops to high for a second. Its a freak thing but can happen. This is what I was told and have felt this before when I planed on a wot run and had to pull out for some reason just before I reached top speed. You mentioned the rudder effect this is what it feels like alright. Thats when you need to apply power to gain control of the steering usually at slower speeds comming off a high speed run right? Well only thing is above 80+ it happens before you feel it and will turn ya. I hope this makes sence some one could have expained it in two sentences probably and im not spell checking this because that would take another five min.:laughing James

 

[froggy]

Whipper,

You have it down pretty good!

My, daily, fishing prop is a, new model, Chopper II in 28 pitch. The prop is unmodified and very efficient at low and mid-range speeds. Yes, I can chop it at 90+ and stay in the boat---it's all in the setup.

The Chopper II may be getting replaced with a 28P, Flying Butcher Version, Hoss as soon as our lakes clear up enough to test the prop. In addition to your DR4, the Hoss props are fairly gentle to ABotes.

froggy

 

[ALLISONMAN]

HOOKING is a thing of poor set-up and/or driver error!!! balance, setback, driver skill, prop height and a many other things all contribute to this deal!! A proper setup boat with the right driver shouldnt be an issue unless of course yo encounter some rouge waves!!!

 

[GFinch]

froggy,
The more you post the more question raised.
Which I think is good and believe will help all who are reading this. Butt as ALLISONMAN says maybe I'm not the right driver:idiot ,now where is that smiley with the tongue sticking out! lol

"The lip that rests on the trailer bunks is evil and unnecessary"
Evil, I like that discription
Is this lip more for slow speed porpoising then anything else? There for unnecessary. Or?

(see BadBait for moral support and help). I don't know if BadBait and moral should be used in the same sentence. He did PM with an offer of help which I will take.

"Now run your boat at zero trim......." At what speed? I'd expect 60 or more, butt....?

whipper,
it does make sence to me and is what I have been doing, not holding and letting the boat take a set for the speed. My question to you is, are you going to get the insurance problem fixed for WAR08 and let me meet you ?

 

[froggy]

Gary,

The evil and unnecessary lips were designed to help underpowered performance. Removal of said does not add any porpoising but it does keep the boat from kicking in the wrong direction in wakes. Removal also gets rid of the poor handling, mid-range, "transition zone". I was told it was OK to remove said from a high design authority (once again BadBait knows who but I am reluctant to post who) or I would not have had the balls to sand mine off!

I come out of the hole trimmed fully under. The instant I mash the pedal, I also mash the trim button. I stay on the trim, uninterrupted, until I get to neutral trim and I don't touch it again until I need to holeshot again. Can't be more simple than that. Now, when I'm testing props, for Hoss Props, I will trim more positive from time to time to see what the performance envelope is, but with my, accepted, props it's unnecessary.

Working the pad lip is, one of the set up things that gives you the low speed/mid-range and high end lift necessary at neutral trim. I re-iterate, modifying the pad lip is the last thing you should attend to during a proper setup.

It's really easier than it sounds, just time consuming as heck. I have a dozen, or so jack plates hanging around and am fortunate to have a great prop guy for a friend.

froggy

 

[badbait]

Gary, it may be that all you need to do is get the fuel curve on your motor adjusted so that you can come out of the throttle a little slower. That thing was either screaming or four stroking at the Rally when you made your passes. When you get out of shape and let off the power it abruptly started four stroking. This could be some of the reason it hooks. Next is setback. I notice at the Rally you currently have a lot bow lift and maybe more than you wanted at times. After watching the boat run, in my opinion more setback is not needed. If it were mine I would come in 2" and replace the heavy jack plate with a lighter manual plate. Funny how you can talk to 3 different guys and get 3 different opinions. I do have one advantage I've watched it run quite a few times.

 

[whipper]

Gary, insurance thing! I dont want to talk about it right now but ill tell you that I have a plan.:big grin Im thinking about going to the S&F rally in Washinton in Sept. Im aloud to go there. Well see. Its still up in the air because no one wants to organize it yet! This is a great thread and very informative. James

 

[GFinch]

O.K. I called and wasted two hours of bills(badbait)life. Wasn't a waste for me though! He said it was O.K. cuz he was retarded, Uh retired. Since we have Full Figured outboards we get along O.K.

We discussed the "EVIL LIP" and the pad lip and pros/cons possible. The consensus is the evil lip doesn't help with high HP setups.

Also about the four stroking. Yes absolutely, it was extremely rich at the rally. It only had 4 hrs run-in time prior to the WAR07. I did lean it down a little mid week butt it was still limited to 6,300 rpm cus it went pig rich above that rpm. I am still learning and setting the fuel map. The timing was limited to 15 degrees, should be 17 to 18.
More fuel to resistance. A larger prop or more load requires more fuel. So when it four strokes with a 26" prop like it was, it will 4 stroke even more with a smaller pitch like a 22'. This is why the times didn't change much although a 22, 24 and 26 were used on the three days the times were taken. Four stroking is that dull flat sound you hear in the video. The engine is firing every other power stroke.

Onward and upward.
Whats this for, the pocket behind and to the port of the pad?
It's not on the other side!

 

[badbait]

Now Gary, so that we don

 

[2fast4mom]

I was told it was OK to remove said from a high design authority (once again BadBait knows who but I am reluctant to post who)

INQUIRING minds NEED to KNOW!!!

Also, I would like to hear an explanation/discussion of what the lip does for "underpowered" motor situations. What's the physics theory on this?

There are two other quotes out there that are useful axioms to memorize:

1. "ALWAYS RESPECT the SEA."

2. "It never ceases to amaze me how others know so much more about our boats than we do."

(Bill I posted this must have been at the same time you were posting the above, it was in no way meant to be a reply to what you said. I agree with what you said. I too do not believe the lip is "evil".)

 

[GFinch]

"We discussed the "EVIL LIP" and the pad lip and pros/cons possible."

"Since we have Full Figured outboards we get along O.K."

" I don

 

[2fast4mom]

"take it easy baby, dontcha gimme no lip."

-George Thorogood.

4th of July. Time to break some rules and blow something up. And remember that Freedom isn't Free.

Have a GREAT one!!!!

 

[GotMyAlly]

I think that little pocket is where the speedo pitot is normally mounted.