The old "lip sander" is back at it..........

[chad202]

Bryan, u and I had our share of discussions on these boards and in person but I must say u bringing up Jim is not cool. The lip had nothing to do with him getting pitched. Alcohol and 2' waves and the owner however did. I ran Roys boat even higher after the rally with no issues what so ever. Like u said they all hook and it's driver error. Now I believe without a doubt that without the lip they are less prone to hooking.

 

[ALLISONMAN]

exactly chad boat had nothing to do with it. it was driver error and conditions however the lip was removed or partialy removed and it still hooked and pitched him. removing the lip is a bandaid and is no guarantee that it isnt gonna pitch ya out if you remove it. once again the leverage effect of higher motor heights when the nose drops is more dangerous than lower motor heights and usually what happens is the nose drops - picks the gearcase out of the water and turns around as you have lost all the rudder of the skeg to keep you straight. also the effects of higher motor heights add more stress to gearcases and props. when a prop blades is smacking the water because the gearcase is higher you will have more prop problems and also more gearcase problems especially at slower cruising speeds and also fuel consumption will go up with less lip because the boat has more wetted area without a lip at slower speeds. the lip plays alot more in a whole lot more area's than just wide open throttle. it would be great to hook up a smartcraft scan - check fuel consumption, prop slippage and ride control and do tests as before lip mods and then after lip mods and then with no lip. i would be you that this has been done and therefore that is why darris has lips on his boats from his research and trial and error. I will say this if darris thought no lip was safer and better there wouldnt be one there!!

 

[catfish123]

I do not agree with the prop problem and gearcase problem comments. I believe the relationship of the propshaft to the surface of the water is the same as it was prior to any lip sanding. Obviously, a prop can only run so high before it blows out. With the water not being diverted down as far with a sanded lip, the prop can be run higher without putting additional stress on it. It's relationship height wise is the same as it was before the modification. If my thinking on this is wrong, please explain to me why it is. And when the nose drops and the gearcase lifts, it would do so far more with a full lip due to the additional upward force of the water on the back of the boat. With a sanded lip, cut the throttle and it just "glides" in to a smooth, controlled stop.

 

[catfish123]

Darris doesn't think an XB2003 should run with more than a 150 because it isn't safe...............what do you run???

 

[chad202]

Bryan, we'll have to agree to disagree. Here's the way I look at it.

You state that the lip is better cause it aids in lifting the rear of the boat. Well it not only lifts the rear of the boat when your foot is in the gas. When you let off, it's still lifting correct. Now although the actual motor height is lower when a lip is present but the propshaft in relation to the water coming off the pad is close to the same. Here's why: to achieve big numbers regardless of motor, you must get the least drag as possible and maintain good handling. In order to get less drag, you must get as must gearcase as possible out the water. If you're too low, it'll slow you down, if you're too high, you'll still be faster but it won't take set. The same without lip except the motor is higher but the water coming off the pad is rising higher cause it isn't redirected downward by the lip. I set up a boat by having someone I trust drive or I drive while they lay on the back deck. With lip or without lip, I put the motor to where the water coming off the pad is hitting the lu right at the water pickup which means the nose is out the water. This would give the same amout of blade slapping and lu stress. Now let off the gas, the stern of the boat without lip is allowed to fall into the water which brings the motor with it. Now the boat with a lip(creates tail lift remember) isn't allowed to fall as much cause the lip lifts the stern, remember? With the lip, the bow falls a good bit further which is why it's more likely to hook imo. I know you know a great deal about allisons and setting them up so please to think I'm knocking your knowledge cause I'm not. I think we just had different physics teachers. lol

Another thing, that year I talked to you at Jasper I ran the river run and also the poker run on the same tank of fuel. River run is 90 miles. I burned 16 gallons of fuel. If my calculator is right, that's 5.6mpg. Now I had a small pitch prop with tons of lift so it is possible to still have an efficient boat without lip.

 

[catfish123]

I have no axe to grind here either.......a boat lip maybe.......LOL......seriously though Bryan, I'm with Chad on we all are more than entitled to our own opinions based on whatever we want to base them on. I'm comfortable that I have done the right thing for me, my passengers, and my boat. I have lost no speed at all, however, I certainly do respect all of your opinions, and I agree with some of them.

 

[suicidealli]

WOW!!!! im not saying anything!!!!lol

 

[propmanjay]

+1

 

[HO]

You guys can speculate about the physics all day long...it's kinda fun to read. Especially when Bryan gets to typing in all caps.

However, the take home message to the average boat owner should be stock is not a bad thing. From a safety standpoint, we don't want to see people manipulating their setup in this level of detail just from a post they read on the internet.

 

[Allyfishing]

My being a total "rookie" on Allisons and setup and everything else having to do with High Performance boating, just leaves me wanting to read more and more of the "personal experiences" of each and every one of you as well as others.

I can definitely see both sides of this. I do remember reading somewhere that the reason the lip is on the Allison boat in the first place is to allow it to be superior in speed as well as all other aspects of high performance hulls with far less HP needed and still outrun most other boats on the water.

Just take a look at the Allison website and check out the HP ratings on the SS and a few others and it makes ya chuckle thinking "yeah right"!! LOL!!!

I just love reading everything you seasoned guys have to say due to your experiences and you are all right in some way shape or form. Just think how dull this forum would be not to mention the lack of performance gains in all areas without experimentation and deferences of opinion.

Thanks for taking the initiative to experiment and forge new ideas and engine/hull/prop mods so that we all benefit in the long run. :big grin

 

[strip]

My boat has no lip. I think since I am only running a 200 I should have one. My boat runs the bow higher than any other Ally I have seen run. when I hammer down, the trim goes all the way up, I have tried to bump it down, only to see the gps drop like a rock with the slightest bump. I think my boat might even like another degree or 2 if my trim system had it to give. I can reason that a lip will increase the likelyhood and the severity of a hook given the same setup as a hull with no lip, just as I can reason that the lip was placed there for one purpose...to make the boat perform with less HP.

 

[ALLISONMAN]

all and all i ran 106.8 in my prosport with a 280 with lip and the only time i ever spun mine around was at an 0dba race in 2001 when i had the motor jacked to the moon and then actually hit my livewell fill while waiting at the start line (probably since it was near the key switch) and i had the livewell overflow plugged but not the intake side!!!! I ran across the finish line and let off and around i went i had 94 something on the gps and was facing the start line in about a boat length. with that said i think chad has gone 106 something with no lip and both of us had some left but i ran out of driver as the boat didnt set real well!! i also had ran 97 gps speeds many times with 2 people fishing gear and a 25 tempest prop fishing. i also believe these boats drive real well into the low 100's but you get about 104-105 and the aero doesnt like it well as me and chad both have kinda described the same feeling with 2 totally different bottoms. I always seem to run faster with some lip even on boats not designed with them. i put a lip on my fishing partners Javalin and it ran faster, i have since added some lip on my bullet and the more lip i add the faster it runs, same went with my drag boat added more lip and the faster it went but et suffered after a certain point even though speed increased. like has been said everyone has their own way and own opinion mine is just been different from chad's

 

[zatchmo]

I think you can make lip or no lip run just fine, it's just a matter of finding the correct prop for each setup. My XB2003 has a very small amount of lip left, and I haven't found the exact right prop yet, but I'm getting closer. My setup runs 98-99 any day of the week with my small amount of fishing gear. My best speed is still just over 100, but I have a couple mph current, so 98-99 real speed is my best. That being said, I have to run 1 1/2" + above the pad at 14" setback.

 

[TBuck2003]

HO is right in the fact that no newbie should take any experience here as the Gospel...Bottom line is this you will never prove one way or the other until the set ups are SCIENTIFICALLY the same... As in Gearcase, prop, weight, and weight placement. And the ultimate variable is MOTOR and at what RPM does it do its thing. Are we talking 300h.p.@6000 or 300h.p. @ 8500-9000 ???? Huge difference with all these variables.

I can run all day long @ 105-106 (Right conditions) with two, 200 plus passengers. Or run 101-102 with four to five people in my GSE. I do not run my boat solo cause the motor can give me more than the boat will deliver. Point being do not exceed yours or your boats boundaries or it is not if, it is WHEN!!!!! Set your boat up for how you use it 95% of the time. There is no wrong way or right way, but stick with the SAFE WAY !!!!!!!!!!

TBuck

 

[chad202]

Good post from everyone. They have, can, and will continue to run good both ways. My opinion on that is that it's easier and cheaper to setup without the lip when you have over a 225 promax. Promax or less I wouldn't touch the lip. 225x and over I would but in relation to your HP. I think Darris himself states that a xb2003 "was not designed" to run these speeds so tweaking the design I feel was in order for me. Please remember not to do anything just cause you read it. You must understand it, all of it and there are always risk in high performance boating. Find someone you trust if your wanting to tweak your setup. For Bryan, that's Glenn, and for me, it's Kevin Bryant. Not so much for them to do it for you but for reassurance that what ur thinkin, describing, feeling is right and your approach to correcting any problems is right. That way you learn and start trusting yourself.
It was good to have another discussion with you Bryan. Hope you and the family are doing good and have plessed holidays.

 

[whipper]

Todd what setback are you running? Your motors a 260 right? I like your numbers your GS runs alot!!

Whats the HP of your 260 ya think? Ive heard with a little more HP the GS likes the wieght in the hull and flys more stable over 100 like what your describing.

 

[TBuck2003]

Whippy almost 12" on set back. 260 Yes and a shitload of test time to unlock combo !!!!!!!! Have no idea what h.p. just know it is right. SVS , PCU, Tuner, all stock internals. As well as L/U and props...

TBuck

 

[chad202]

Since wayyyyyyy back in time lips of all sizes have gotten us men into trouble. Whether it be women or boats. Lol

 

[TBuck2003]

Bout time somebody was honest enough to answer the question... Chad +1 Brotha

TBuck

 

[catfish123]

Amen.....it's all good as long as we all keep the right side of the boat up. I wish a great Holiday Season to all of you......stay safe.