Welded Pistons

fishnfireman

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Randy,
me and these D_(edit) peace_full, pistons go way back, Had a 97 Pmax lost one we thought "bad luck"--- rebuilt, lost another one-- rebuilt ---sold mtr..
Bought a 2000 pmax drove it two years hung it up. when I bought a 99 280SS that lost a pin... rebuilt it with 5 old and 1 new marles welded pistons. Everyone was saying if you don't it will just do it again.... Sold that mtr with the 2003. Its still running fine 3 yrs later.
Bought new 21 Psport in July and hung the 2000 Pmax on it.. All the time thinking we should pull it down this winter and pin the pistons........... did not get a chance it ATE a ring in Oct.
So yes 5 of them are used....
I was told a new set of good pistons would be over a grand. and had not heard any bad reports with top pinning....
 

GPI Racing

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Here's my scoop and see if it has any logic to it. I know many guys have had luck with top pinned used pistons. But let's look at the root of the problem in the first place.

Mercury is like NASA. They give the job to the lowest bidder not nessesarily the best. Case in point: cheap poor low silicon cast pistons in the promax's etc. I've had the wrist pin pull right out of these for no apparent reason. The pin coming out is the least of your worries. Case in point 2: the 2.5 block used to be Nicasil coated by Mahle in Germany. The pistons were Mahle's also. Never had a pin issue. (there are some mahle's out there that have given pin problems, BUT they are 12 year old pistons! They SHOULD fail!) In 1994-5 Mercury in their infinite wisdom had Wieseco build the pistons and US Chrome do the block. Not because it was better..it was cheaper. The early US Chrome block had the plating peel off as they got up to speed with the process.

Two strokes have been using side pin pistons for the last 50+ years. All of a sudden we have the pins fall out. Honda doesn't have a problem with pins, niether does Yamaha (outboard or anything else they make), or any other manufacture I know of. Nope just the piston made in the good old USA. Funny how that works out. A high silicon piston (one which doesn't expand massively) is very hard on tooling and machining. Very hard. (US mfg's are all about the bottom line)Hence why Wieseco uses less than 6%. Also why they rattle until they heat up. Very nice. A quaility (foreign) piston runs a nice piston to wall clearance the is sometime half of the wieseco. It fits better from the start. A high silicon cast piston is worth some horsepower because it fit better. (2 horse per hole on a Merc) that is why a cast piston is all you'll find in any high perf 2 stroke from any mfg minus mercury. 60hp 250cc moto crossers...cast pistons (think about the power per cc compared to our pitiful 2.5s)(think about which would have more "stress" as the bike runs 14000rpm). If your worried about breaking one, cryo it. In over 150 engines over the last 3 years I've had ZERO failures. Must be something to it.

A piston is a engineering marvel. It is an alloy. It has calculated expantion characteristics. If you change the material in a certain spot, you change this..ask anybody that MAKES pistons, they will tell you as much. You cannot buy a filler made from the alloy of a good quaility piston. A piston has a coating on the outside. If you have ever seen a piston that lightly scores, this hard anodized surface (for lack of what it really is)is what seems to spread itself on the side of the piston when you lightly seize it, giving that "wiped" look. It is the piston's first line of defence. I'm not making this up, I have been told this by many different manufactures. If you glass beed the piston you effectively destroy this coating. A used piston that has been heat cycled many times has much less of this intact. Why all this talk....because there is no reason to put a used piston in any engine that you've taken the time to tear down. Pistons have a limited life. The original Merc v-6 was designed to run 5500rpm. We spin the 7-8-9000+rpm with essentially the same components. I almost laugh when I see guys question why the pins came out of their '97 2.5. They should have! The thing is 8 years old! Then they buy one new piston and top pin the old ones! Throw them in the trash and buy new ones.

I've used pistons from Vertex (Italy) and ART (Arias Racing Tech, Japan) and some from Perfect Bore (England). They all are lightyears better than the Wiesecos or the low bid promax parts. The Vertex and ART parts are 1/2 of the merc and you can buy a piston and ring set for 6 holes for less than Merc charges for a ring set to do the same engine. The perfect bore stuff is more and we DLC (diamond-like-carbon) coat those. The skirt has to be micro polished to accept the DLC.

All this is my opinion, but the pistons get more abuse than any part in the engine. Why stretch their life past the due date.

Randy
 

fishnfireman

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Thanks again Randy,

what you say makes perfect sence... wish i would have had this info a month ago.

i also wonder if the reason i have more trouble than most with the pins......
could it be we never quit fishing and make to many trips in water that is from 42 to 55 degrees...none of the 3 motors had more than 150 hrs on them :!:
 

JaySmithRacing

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I have HUNDREDS of Marles top pinned pistons installed without a single failure. Marles is the man when it come to top pinning others have tried the process and failed. Don't know how he does it ! Don't care all I can reflect is MINE and MY customers success rate which is 100 % .......If I had a set of side pinned pistons that measured in spec they would get a trip to Ca.

My .02 and opinion,

Jay @ JSRE
 

CHRIS IND

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Pistons

From an engineering perspective, a micrometer is not going to tell the whole story with respect to a piston's true condition. Structural defects could be present that aren't readily apparent to the naked eye and won't show up in dimensional measurements. That's why the best F1 racers change them on a race by race basis. Someone will say that the F1 guys have a large budget and can afford to do it--that's why they do it. They know that new pistons of "known" condition with respect to fatigue and micro-fractures are the best way to start off. Some of the racers will sell the used the pistons and say they "look great". If they look great, why are they selling them?

To me, welding a top pin is a Band-Aid for another problem. The real problem is the piston material!! The reason the pin works lose is because of different expansion rates of the materials involved. When the aluminum piston expands faster/more than the steel locator pin, it's not going to maintain a nice press fit....period. The high silicon piston doesn't expand as much. Silicon (not "silicone") is a ceramic and it expands and contracts very, very little with temperature. That's attacking the problem at its cause.

Next, why on earth would someone want to bead blast the coating off of a piston skirt? The manufacturer surely put it there for a reason. Furthermore, bead blasting removes material (albeit a small amount) and embeds foreign material (glass...sand?) in the soft, base metal. Not something I want in my motor.

Lastly, a great form of feedback on how a product or service performs is a warranty. Without a warranty, how does one know if it failed or not. If an engine blows and the customer thinks it's caused by a shortcoming of the builder, how apt is that customer going to be to bring it back for another round.

I send my stuff to Minnesota for reason.....

Chris
 

froggy

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Chris,

You hit it right on - good explanation. Also I have never been able to determine "roundness" with a caliper or micrometer, perhaps I'm stupid but I need a circular jig to do this.

Everyone needs to know how to tell a high silicone piston from a high silicon piston. The high silicone piston has a little nipple on top.

froggy
 

JaySmithRacing

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Piston "material" is the problem ????? So you "fix" the locator pin problem by running a known weaker based piston .. HUM ! ( as I feel it SHOULD be a known fact forged ANYTHING is stronger than cast ! ) The locater pin configuration IS is the problem. I'll take a forged piston with a "fixed" locater pin over ANY cast any day in a stressed 8000 + rpm motor so goes the industry standard ( Racing Cars, Bikes, Boats, ) thats the lead I have chose to follow.

If you were to survey people that are racing ( Santioned ) High Performance , Big RPMS, Big Compression and High HP Mercury I dare to say you would'nt find a great number of folks running a cast piston in one of thier motors ! Why don't you ask the board how many ODBA , DSRA , SDBA, F-1 racers have won titles running or have ran cast pistons in thier race motors ( That weren't bound by class rules to run OEM parts only ! ) :wink: .....

All is my opinion , people can do and run the parts they please........

Jay @ JSRE
 

US1

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My opinion is, anybody can use what every they feel comfortable as far as piston material goes, most people putt around the lake and maybe make an occasional speed run, cast should be fine. I, as an F1 racer, would never put a cast piston in a 9600-RPM motor. Neither would any body I know that drivers or builds F1 engines. I wonder what the ODBA top drivers are running? Assuming every piston removed from every motor is bad is a little excessive but it does sell pistons. Welded top pins have proven them selves successful 100s of time over. It just is what it is. I know there are plenty of unhappy people out there that have tried and failed and were forced to chance their marketing strategy. I get bashed all the time. I
 

GPI Racing

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John,

That was very nicely said. We all have opinions and I can say I respect yours even if it is different than mine. Have a good (and safe if you go out) new year.

Randy
 

fishnfireman

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Hi John :!:

Glad you stoped by.
The pistons looked great, should have that thing running soon.

It's always nice to hear a different view point.

Between you and Jay and Randy there is a wealth of talent and knowledge. We can all listen and learn from.

As always, thank to all for sharing there expertise..
And HAPPY new year :arrow:
 

US1

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There is definitely always more than one way to skin a cat. Happy New Year!
 

ALLISONMAN

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HEY JOHN I WILL BE SENDING YOU SOME PISTONS THIS WEEK!!! GOTTA GET HER DONE!!! TALK TO YOU LATER THIS WEEK
 

US1

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OK, I'll be waiting for them. I'll call you when they get here. Put your number in the box.
 

Chummy

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ALLISONMAN said:
HEY JOHN I WILL BE SENDING YOU SOME PISTONS THIS WEEK!!! GOTTA GET HER DONE!!! TALK TO YOU LATER THIS WEEK
Hey Randy, I won't be sending you my pistons this week because..... :D Why would you need them :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 

ALLISONMAN

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YEAH YEAH YEAH BUT THINK OF THIS A 2001 280 WITH 150 HOURS AND NEVER HAD A THING INTERNAL TOUCHED!!!!!!! AND BRAD I ACTUALLY USE MY BOAT!!!! NOW GET ON YER KNEES BOY HACKIE DONE TOLD ME THE DEAL ON YOU!!!!! UUTTTTT OOOOHHHHH!!!!!!

OH YEAH AND BY THE WAY NO PENZOIL IN THIS MOTOR!!!!
 

Chummy

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Don't use my boat come on now? How many gallons of oil did you use last year? Hackie done told you what? that my in-control shifter is being replaced because they had a bad batch made? or is it that Mercury put un-heat treated bearings in my motor from the get go?
 

GPI Racing

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Here we go........

Why would you take apart a 2.5 with 150 hours on it and put the same pistons back in? Pinned or not that is the whole jist of this topic. My peeve is NOBODY in the rest of the world rebuilds a engine and puts old parts back in. If they did it wouldn't be called rebuilding, it would be called "taking apart and putting back together for a look". Parts have a limited life. Pistons and bearings are not the 2.5s greatest asset. They are the first parts to wear out.

In reference to drag racers and the like, You don't see Wayne Tripp, DeWitt or Scott Gillman using old parts in their engines. They know.

It makes me "no difference" what people do or how they do it. But anybody who is anybody in all forms of high performance engine building don't rebuild with parts that may or may not be measurable to spec. Fatigue is an engine killer. You can't measure that.

Think about it and draw your own conclusion.

Randy
 
J

John Richied

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But Bryan’s boat ain’t a race boat… After Jerry spanked him with a 32-pitch prop in a drag race, he took up fishin’ hehehehehe :p :p :p

So as long as Allison man just fishes and keeps the Rpm’s less than 6500, he’ll probably be okay… Hey I have to give him credit for tearing down his 280 after 150 hours… I have seen some guys get to 150 plus hours and brag, brag, brag about it then POP! They’re sorry. :cry:

I think it’s great having options, experience and opinions on this board and Randy, Jay, and John bring that to this board for sure.
 
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