WHERE IS THE SPEED ?

[fishnfireman]

Ok guys,

Tournament season is in full swing out here in west Texas.
So the lake we have been running is off limits to us about as much or more of the time than it is open.
My point being--- when we are able to get on the water it is more for locating fish than doing a lot of testing. And the Darn wind has been relentless.......What we have been doing is putting a prop on for the whole day, then change the next and hope the wind will give us a chance to make a decent run.

There are 3 of us with new 21 ftrs - and here are the results.
These speeds are all with the Garmin dash mount gps top speed recall.
The lake is about 1400 ft elevation. The best speeds were done with 2 on board, REAL time tournament load AND NO water in wet well.

2006 prosport/225 promax a few mods. best speed 81.2
29 RE3 Mazco --6600 rpm 81.2
28 RE4 " " ---6400 " 80.5
28 Drag 4 ---6600 " 81.0
26 trophy ---6400 " 78.4
There is a lot of slip for some reason by those numbers. I have added 1 inch more setback Per Darris from original.

2005 prosport elite/250xs this boat came with a 25 trophy and needs a bigger wheel--- best speed to date is 78.9 I am not sure but I don't think it will always hit the limiter.. This boat is loaded heavy--however it will run almost identical top speed with 3 on board. so I think it could use a bigger wheel and a little higher propshaft height and could see an improvment.

2006 bass sport pro/280 bass-- best speed to date is 84.5 with a 26 trophy.
I do not know all the numbers, but he has ran several props including a big ear chopper and a 28 RE4.

We sure thought they would run better than that without a lot of trouble.
especialy when we keep hearing that they will run 90 with a 200

 

[jimmyb]

craig needs to jump in on this one... he had is 21' with a 250XS dialed in pretty good...

your buddy really needs to jump up in prop pitch on the 250XS motor... you dont need to rev the motor to get speed... prop it to run 58-6000 and it will perform well...

 

[Jimxb02]

Don't forget the 1400 ft elevation is going to have some negative effect on your performance.

Jim

 

[Blueally XB21]

Those numbers don't sound good at all compared to the numbers I get from my BasSport Elite Xb21 (four seater) 225X engine, 86+ GPS (Garmin 168 in dash). I am running a allison cut 27 trophy on the limiter! I admit this prop is a little long legged but the speed I have posted is with a full tourney load and 2 people as well. I am going to try some new props this spring. I beleive my boat is capabalbe of a little more with the larger 15" dia. performer 3 or 4 style props. The weather is still cold here in KY so it will be a month or so before I can test these props.
From the numbers you have posted, sounds like to me you have some set-up issues to overcome, wieght distribution, engine height, props, etc. I have a hydrulic plate and the boat performs best with this prop and fully loaded at ~1/4 below the pad. I have the standard 8" set back. V6Merc (Darryl) has a 250XS on his BasSport Elite XB21 and runs ~89 with full tourney loads. I think he is running the 8" set-back as well but I don't know about his engine height. Maybe he will chime in here and offer some help for ya. I'm sure, as others have said, the elevation is going to hurt you some, I don't know how much as I have not done any testing at higher elevations.

The ProSport version should be a little faster as they are lighter and have better balance, airodynamics, etc.

We are seeing much better numbers than what you have posted. I hope you all get things worked out. Perhaps at trip to the Ally factory to let Darris drive and test your set up would be in order if possible. There are several good Dealers in TN that can set them up well too!

Good luck.

 

[fishnfireman]

Blueally,

does your boat take a good set at 1/4 below :?:

the only time i raised mine that high. it had a BIG roostertail and wanted to fall off pad and do the ole bow turn. Since then I have kept it about 1" below.
Someone correct me here----but if those big pitch props are allready turning 6400- 6600 rpm's on a promax---- but only running low 80's
It has a lot of slip already.
.I don't think higher prop ht would help. (OR will IT) :?:

I would have thought the 26 Trophy would hit the limiter . After turning a 29 pitch RE3 to 6600.

Now that I have some numbers I am going to give Darris another call.

But would like to hear any input from here as this is kinda uncharted waters.

I don't think anyone has ran a 280 on this hull till now.

As far as setup issues. None of these 3 boats are performing that well.

 

[Blueally XB21]

The 27 ally cut trophy takes a little lake to "grab" the water well and pick the bow up. That is what I ment by "long legged". I think the larger dia. props will perform better on this hull and illiminate this issue. I know the trophy prop can be rebuilt to help this (long legged, slow lifting) issue. Mine takes ~1/4 of a mile to really start picking the hull up well with this prop. I could have this prop worked a little more to help but I am chosing to try other larger dia. props at this point. The boats handles well after the prop catches up with the trim (lifts the hull).

As for the slip calculation, I have 1:87 gears. My engine limiter is 6750. I do not know what gears you are running so it's hard for me to comment on that other than to say slip is not always a bad thing. GPI Racing and other racers here can comment or explain that issue better than I.

Hope this helps. Harvey

 

[RedAllison]

I certainly don't claim to be 100% on this info but several things come too mind. First as far as the 1400ft, that shouldn't be that big of a deal. During the TN Rallies we are all running over 1000ft and with much more humidity than south TX and yet the numbers are much better than you guys are getting. 1" below on ANY Allison simply sounds to deep. My 2003/225SS really struggles to push a load over 80ish if the gearcase is anywhere near that low, it's like draggin an anchor and the hull handles like crap. You are really pushing ALOT of metal through the water and I think that is part of your problem.

And you might not want to hear it, but you guys are running the wrong props! Overhubs simply will not properly lift a heavily loaded 21 and allow it to run right. I think you need a worked Trophy or even better something like a Hydromotive, something with a barrel to lengthen the gearcase and provide more lift for that hull. I think you guys should at least see another 5mph with 21 ProSports and 225X's. I doubt seriously you'll ever scare 90 without a 3.0 though. When Darris runs those numbers it is in his demo, with a tweaked case, tweaked Trophy and under good conditions. I know the rally before last he and I ran spot on 82 with his then brand new SUB/200XS. Try that loaded and with stock setups and I bet you would be doing good to bust 77-78.

Just a guess,
RA

 

[catfish123]

The limiter on the 225X motor is at 6850 rpm's. The older Promax motors were at 6750.

 

[fishnfireman]

The gears are 1.87-1 the lower unit is sportsmaster with the Allison mods.

Red i hate to admit it but you might be right.
It might take a 3.0 ltr to get the big numbers on this heavy of a rig.
Also the thru hub props might have to work.( but I ain't give up yet)

But there are sure a lot more folks who will argue about having to run the props that high to get some great numbers.

my old 2003/225 ran best with my loads at 3/4 -1" below pad.

Whats worse the 280 bass that is on the 21 basssport pro. Ran within a couple of mph on his 21' Bullet

 

[catfish123]

What did your old 2003/225 run on top end with a similar load to what you are running now? What prop were you using then?

 

[spudman14]

I'm one of the three 21' owners, mine is the one with the 280. We've
got three different motors, three different setbacks, and have all tried
many different props. The speeds came right from our Garmin gps
units. 78.2 for the 250xs, 81.5 for the 225 and 84.5 for my 280. I just
don't think we're all hapless, inept, boaters. We've all owned many
Allisons and Bullets.

 

[RedAllison]

spud I don't think anyone is calling you guys hapless or inept boaters, you are asking for help and we are offering suggestions. The truth be known is this is still relatively new ground (getting 21s dialed in). There just aren't that many out there yet and even fewer 21 owners on this site. We are just trying to put together our heads and report data from what we have seen with our own eyes and what has worked for other 21 owners.

The fact that one of your 21s with a 250XS is running only 78 screams that something is horribly wrong in that setup. I dare say it should be the fastest boat of the 3 when the tournament weight is poured on and the final "magic spot" is found (if they all 3 are the same style hull). There are many 21/250XS running a solid 10+mph faster than those speeds. I just wonder if you guys are running to much setback, the wrong kinds of props and have the gearcases to deep? If the boats have to much setback, then they should, if anything, be able to be run much much higher than is ideal but instead you guys are finding they run better with the gearcases buried (anything below 1/2"-3/4" is deep).

From what I can gather and have seen, the 21s with big blocks on them need at MOST 8" of setback. I also wonder how much would really work if someone would drop down too say only 6" with a hyd plate (maybe even 4")? The pads on the 21s are WAY up front of the transom compared too the 02s and 03s. I just think perhaps with 8 or more inches of offset that relationship is to long?

I realize Bullets like ALOT of jackplate but they aren't an Allison obviously. What kinds of gearcase height were you running on the 21 Bullet? I realize also they like ALOT more height than Allisons. Also, since day one, when loaded and rigged equally the 21 centerconsoles have typically been 5-10mph faster than the 21 Bullets with the same engines. (I'd say 21BaSports are about 3-7 faster than the big Bboats.)

I still say a worked Trophy and a Hydromotive with only about 6"-8" of plate raised too about 1/2" below should yield SOMEKIND of noticable increase.

Keep on keepin on, :wink:
RA

 

[fishnfireman]

Red the spudman has raised his prop high enough that it blew out.
(His Nads are bigger than mine)

He did it with 8 inches of set back...............that's when Darris said to move some wt back,,, as the batteries are in front of the console.
and add MORE setback. So we did !! :arrow:

He can still run it up- untill it blows out.... with no noticible improvement.

Spuds LU is a stock sportsmaster.

 

[RedAllison]

Fire I COMPLETELY misunderstood which 21s you guys had. I thought you either had ProSports or BasSports I didn't you meant the 2 seaters (BasSport Pro). Sorry about that. Yeah I would think the batteries up front are a BIG problem, especially with heavier motors.

If all three of you are runnin 2seaters then you are "cuttin new ground" for the board here. Good luck and let us know what you find!
RA

 

[catfish123]

This is confusing to me.......Are these boats all the new BasSport Pro model that only has 2 seats and the 2 consoles more like a traditional bassboat? I thought from the original post that they were not all that model.

 

[spudman14]

Sorry, the 280 is a 2006 2 seat model, the other two are the Pro Sport
model. The batteries may be an issue, but I have tested the boat with
the batteries in the rear and have gone to Optima light weight batteries
mid ship at their original location. I went through this same thing with
a 2003 21' 10" Bullet with a 300x that was supposed to go over 100 MPH.
After much testing of props and setups with the help of two factory
reps, We got 89.6mph with one one person and low fuel. This translates
to about 81 mph with two people, full fuel and tournament load.

 

[fishnfireman]

If you read my original post carefully it states there is 1 basssportpro which is a 2 seater and 2 prosports that have up to 4 seats....

I am about to decide once again that our version of a true tournament load vs a boat testers version are a long ways apart.

Also that they do not do any testing above 1000 ft elev with the most part of it being done at or near sea level..

No doubt we can find another couple of mph from these boats.
but you would think that if someone could run 90 with a 200 at sea level we might could get near 90 from a 280 or 85 with a 225
The 250 should run a lot better than it is and no doubt will with some changes but right now he has been to busy trying to win a tournament with the rig set up from the dealer.. which in my opinion was sold with the wrong prop....

 

[Blueally XB21]

Catfish123, I'm sure my smartcraft gauge limiter horn sounds at anything above 6750 RPM on my 225X. I think the manual says it's suppose to be 6800+ before the horn sounds and at 6900 the fuel goes rich. Mine is a 2002 model and for some reason my horn sounds at 6750 :?. The motor runs well so I never had it checked. (I can't seem to stay out of it long enough :lol: :lol . I have run the r's higher but honestly don't recall what RPM in actually starts to richen out the motor to reduce r's (actual limiter engauges). If memory serves me correctly it was at ~6850. But hey, at my age I may not be recalling correctly. I'll refreash my memory when I test the props this spring I'm sure. 8) Can't wait till it warms up a little here in KY.


Harvey

 

[badbait]

I do have a 250XS on a XB2003 and have found that you have to prop for no more than 5900 if your wanting to make your best big end numbers. HP starts going away fast after 5800. So to get over 5800 you either have to be loaded light or have a smaller wheel on. I got to thinking mine didn't have a 6300 limiter until one day I put on a 25 trophy and it was all over the limiter in a very short distance. The GPS said 84.5. So just for grins why don't you try a 25 Trophy since your only running 78 now. Craig Cornelius out here in Calif. has the same boat and he runs with a lot of gear and his numbers are a lot better than yours. If he sees this maybe he will chime in and give you some tips on what he did as far as setup goes.

 

[fishnfireman]

badbait,

the 25 trophy is what is on the 250 now. and it shows 78. ? for the top speed recall.....I believe he needs to go--- bigger---

I think I can borrow a 26 Quad 4 that Todd built for my old 2003/280
It was nothing special on the old rig, maybe it will work good on this heavy rig.

Worth a try :idea: