WHERE IS THE SPEED ?

[RedAllison]

Fire just how much crap do you have in the front of these boats? I know about 70# is about all a XB2003 will carry fast without danger of hooking easily (less with 2 people up front). These 21s should certainly carry a bigger load, but with those batteries up there and not enough setback maybe they aren't getting enough lift? SOMETHING is holding these rigs back for sure, do you have any pictures of the running attitudes, if not what do they look like from the side?

It doesn't take as much tackle and equipment to make 100-150#s as people think. Are you guys running with extra trolling motors in a front box? Perhaps a "diet" and moving some crap you don't use that much towards the back might free things up?

Just another thought,
RA

 

[spudman14]

Red,
I still fish tournaments out of my Bullet and have put nothing in my 2006.
I wanted to get it "dialed in" before moving all my fishing stuff into it.

 

[RedAllison]

:?: How can you "dial in a boat" and then throw in 100+#s of tackle/equipment in the nose??? If it aint rockin now, Lord knows it will loose a couple mph, handle and drive differently when the weight is poured into it?

:?
RA

 

[badbait]

Well then, I would stop right there and figure out why he's running so much slip. I'm assuming he's running 1.62 gears and if he is that is 15.2% slip. There is something really wrong with the setup to run that much slip. I would stay with the Trophy until I got the reason for all that slip corrected. After you correct whatever is causing it to run inefficiently, then you can start testing other props. A prop alone is not going to correct that 15% slip. Sounds to me like he's running a 90 lb troller and 250 lbs. of gear and batteries up front of the driver. My opinion only. If that's the case then he's either going to have to add to the setback, take 20 thousands off the lip, redistribute the weight, or a combination of all of these. Again, my opinion only.

I would start by unloading the front of the boat and if the trolling motor has a quick disconect I would even take it off. Now level the pad and take off your prop off and trim the motor out until your shaft is level. Check to see what the trim number is on your smartcraft gauge. Let's just say the number on the gauge is 5. When your running in the sweet spot you should not have to trim out past 6. Then go out with the Trophy first make sure your boat is sitting level in the water, so that your balance side to side is close. Now its time to get some baseline numbers. The slip should come in around 7 to 8%. You will probably be running 83 to 85 on the limiter. If thats the case and you have access to a 26 Trophy go ahead and run that and see what your numbers are. If you go to all this trouble let us know what your numbers are. If this were my boat this is what I would do. Good luck

 

[catfish123]

I believe he said that he has put "nothing" in the boat. If so, there is nothing to unload. Maybe I'm just having a difficult time following all this???

 

[spudman14]

The gist is that there is no "crap" in the boat at all except the batteries,
TM, two people and fuel. I would like to know what the best speed is
before I start adding weight. I have done the procedure with the pad
and centerline of the propshaft and know that I have played with motor
heights from 1" below to 3/4" above the pad.

 

[froggy]

It sounds like two of you will need to change offset distance; with one going in to say 6" and the other going out to say 12". Run em and compare notes. Leave the 250XS where it is since whatever the light motors like the 250 will like at 4" less (est.).

Good luck---you are the pioneers.

froggy

 

[fishnfireman]

Maybe we need to work on one rig at a time.

I think by posting about three different boats here I have confused everyone (myself included)

Go back to my original post :arrow:
The spudmans rig is the 21' two seater with a 280 bass.

 

[catfish123]

My opinion on all this is everyone always wants to make setup seem to be something really magical or at least difficult to attain. There certainly are a pretty good group of these boats out there now so the mystery of at least approximately the right setup is already established. I feel the frustration of these guys who have paid good money for these boats. Rightfully so, they had some pretty good topend speed expectations based on a limited number of others. They are frustrated not only because their boats are not running up to their expectations but also because they have tried all the setups that are working for the majority of others. I could see a few mph difference but their speeds aren't even in the ballpark of what others report. Although not probable, is it not possible that their boats have some type of a problem not associated with setup? I don't believe the answer is in minute setup changes especially since it appears they have already been there and done that.

 

[fishnfireman]

Froggy.

I would really like to have your input on this.

You have made your boat fly with less set back and deeper prop ht.
If I understood your set up. With big Hp you are able to move the mtr in and still lift the boat. As opposed to Darris's trying to use less HP and move it farther back.

With what you have learned, do you think my 225 has enough HP to do this on my 21 pro sport.

 

[fishnfireman]

DAng red,

I don't have near as much CRAP in this boat as I did in the 2003.

Give me a few more Ts and I will.... But so far I've kept to my diet for tackle.

 

[hack02]

Reynolds had one with the big console, knowing him I'm sure it was empty, put a used 260 with no rev limit on it and it ran 95 with I think a 25 Trophy. You might contact him for some help.

 

[froggy]

FNF,

I'm afraid your boat would be foreign territory for me. I don't know what the effect of reducing the lip (is there a lip?) on an XB 21 would be. What is the effect of the steel plate behind the pad (supposedly for holeshot). It seems to me that a pad lip, with a plate behind it, nullifies any effect the lip would have (lip needs to be the furthest back attitude correction device). You fellas are is semi charted waters. Take comfort in the fact that a few others have run better speeds and keep on trying stuff.

My personal opinion is that Darris' demo 21' with a 175 probably weighs less than a production boat. Based on this boat see if you can beg/borrow/steal the modded Trophy he runs.

Common sense tells me that the lever arm effect of a 21' boat is a bunch harder to overcome than the same effect on a 20' boat, so keep your stuff behind the driver. Also, if it requires the use of a 14" offset, for some, to get the XB 2003 to run, logic tells me that even more offset may be required to get an, equivalently loaded, XB 21 to run. Does anyone make a good 16- 18" offset?

Sorry I cn't be of any more help.

froggy

 

[fishnfireman]

Thanks froggy,

The steel plate should be taken out of play with the boat up on pad.
I have not looked at it under speed yet, But i think it is high enough as not to interfere with what the pad lip does for attitude.
If this is the case, the actual offset from pad to mtr bracket is more like about 25 or 26 inches.
The lip is high in the center and tapers down to the outside... I measured it one day as per your instructions, but I don't have that info here at work.
I would like to get one of the "Allison modified Trophy" To see if they will spin a little easier than the stock 26 I have now. Before spending more money

The big eared chopper style props ( ie RE3-RE4) have worked real well for us in the past. Mainly because of our elevation and heavy loads. They allow enough slip that we could get the mtr on the upper end of the rpm range, and run a bigger pitch to get some good speed. Where the Trophy style props would bite so hard, the mtr just will not pull them to the higer rpm's (Not to cofuse anyone Im talking about the 2.5 mtrs)
We could take a 29 RE3 on the 2003's and turn it to about 6600. You could get the boat up on pad, and it would just keep climbing in speed.
But you could take a stock 26 Trophy and it would only hit say 6400 rpm's and be 4-6 mph slower on the same rig same day. In my opinion and some more guys who run with us it's- because of the added wt and elevation we run... It might not be that much but it does not take a lot to start pulling performance out of a hi-reving 2.5

What I have seen so far with MY rig (21 Prosprt/225 Pmax)
I can take that same 29 RE3 that I ran on the 2003 put it on the 21 and get the 6600 RPm's {{{{ but the speed is not coming up.}}}} it's only hitting 81 thats a lot of slip for 1.87-1 gears. Then the 26 Trophy will only turn about 6400 at 78-79 mph.

Do you have any thoughts as to how to get the 29 RE3 to hook up better on top end... But not lose the RPM's :?:

 

[chad202]

I don't have a 21' but on my 2003 when running tournament loaded with two aboard and motor set even with the pad, the boat only ran 90.7mph. Raise it up to 1/4" above and with same load, it picked up several hundred rpm and ran 95mph. In my limited time with this allison, it appears that it doesn't take much change to make a big difference. JMO

 

[fishnfireman]

Chad.
I'm not disputing your numbers.......... But man thats a lot of difference for 1/4 inch.
Heck I don't think I ever saw that much of a swing with my old 2003 from all the way down- to raising it until the bow droped. And it would run a 100 with the 280.....
I did find some of my original notes from talking to Darris..

he said to run a Trohpy from even to 1/2 above..
I know I have not run the Trophy that high because one of the other props blew out at about 1/2 below..
And for self preservation reasons and not wanting to hurt my partner I have not ran one much over 1" below since.

Guess I'll have to put my partner on the bank and do it....
Not going to take a chance on someone's health

 

[froggy]

FNF,

I agree with Chad. My XTB 21 ran best with a 28 pitch big ear chopper at 3/4" over and 4" setback. It's worth a try going up with the chopper style props. If you can get a, new model, Chopper 2 to try, I would try it at a height as suggested by Chad, it may be the ticket.

The more I have thought about the plate and setback, it seems the plate might drag with too much bow height. If that's the case, running flatter may be the ticket.

I know that Yellar Allison has set up his Dad's XB-21 boat and should be able to help you fella's dial your boats in.

What say ye Yellar?

froggy

 

[chad202]

FnF, I've always been told my many people that when you find the "SWEET SPOT" on an Ally, it will pick up several mph. Now that sweet spot is different on everyboat. Also other things like weather and water conditions I'm sure helped the speed out(or hurt the 90mph run). The big difference was the rpm. 7300-7400 one day and 7800 the next just by going up 1/4".

 

[ALLISONMAN]

i have been reading this and just wondered if you have been blowing out because of overtrimming the boat???? the feel in the 21 foot boat will be different that a 2003 and it will feel real flat running!!!! almost like nose low attitude from the drivers seat!!!! get someone from a side view at speed and see the boat angle/ motor angle and such!!! this over trim will also raise that rooster tail like you descibed!!!! the 21 foot boat really take a liking to the 3.0l motors and the 280 really likes a smaller boat!! take a few side pics for us while running and lets see if we can help you boys out because we would hate for a RANGER to pass ya!!!!! :lol: :wink: :lol: :lol:

 

[Yellowallison]

I know that Yellar Allison has set up his Dad's XB-21 boat and should be able to help you fella's dial your boats in.

Yea.. we've played with DADS boat some which is a 2004 BASSSPORT with 04'/250XS/1:62SM @ 8"'s of offset....tried 10" but it slowed down.. want to try 6" offset but it will take a few modications.

REDALLISON remembers at the rally how many different props and combinations I tried tryin to find itz sweet spot. He gave it a few test runs!

Basically out of dozens of props that we have.... we've found one of the best to be a 28 PERFORMANCE 4 BLADE CHOPPER.............. that BILLY worked up jus for DAD boat.

With that prop I've run it 92-93 on the GPS in tha dash...

a 27 Tempest runs real good but it bumps the REV so we tried a 28 tempest but it ran not so HOT!

a few things I do that seem to help the 21's gain a few extra mph is once the boat is up runnin ALL OUT is start workin the trim up - lil high and bout the time yu feel the boat leftin up slightly bump the trim down...I do this 3-4 times over a good stretched out run and I'm always able to get a few extra MPH..

Nuther lil thing I do is give the Steering wheel (slight) YERK to the left-right.... this again will frees up the boat oh so slightly and again the GPS bumps upa a few digits. I also do the lil jerk deal and bump up the trim... but yu gotta be careful yu don't upset it too much and blow it out...

For everyday running Dads 21 runs 83-86 going fishin carry a full tournament load with 2) 250lbs fisherman.... MinKota biggest TM on the front with 3 batteries..

Speaking of BILLY @ Performance!!! my suggestion to you all with 21's is give BILLY at Performance a call and have him work you up a prop.... I do know BILLY has spent some time playing with a few different 21's.

Billy is who does most of Darris's props he test with.. and who does the ALLISON cut on the Trophies that Darris likes so much.

Anyhow... hope this lil bit Help yall some..

I know I sure love DAD's 21 and think it's one AWESOME boat.!!!

I say sometimes who cares how fast it cause it rides so good and is so comfortable.....